And, and it doesn't necessarily translate to operational (implementation). So, I guess, if we're looking at another framework (we need) something that will then be translated into operation and have real meaning for those that it's been applied to.’38 Something that translates into the actual doing because we can, we can write a framework and you know, policies and programs that sound amazing, but operationally it's never going to work, or it's not going to fit or it's not going to achieve its intended purpose.’39 Monitoring and evaluation The need for greater monitoring and evaluation of government policies and programs and the outcomes of grant funding programs was raised by all those who were interviewed. Including monitoring and evaluation of government programs provides a significant opportunity in the racism space to both monitor outcomes and create a baseline for measurement. ‘Now countering violent extremism (CVE) investment is lessening (it’s) still present but more virtuous. A lot of government funding (was) spent on smaller projects that were reinventing wheels (with) no sufficient evaluation of what was being invested in.’40 The challenges in measuring more intangible behaviour changes were raised. The work of the Scanlon Institute and the Challenging Racism project and the Australian Reconciliation Barometer provide salient examples of mapping, measuring and reporting. ‘Because a lot of what we do is tricky to measure. But that is a good point. That is something we've also been discussing, is how do you measure outcomes, say from grants rounds etc, around whether they achieved the purpose when it is something less tangible, like social cohesion or things of that nature?’41 Children and young adults Some participants raised the education setting as a significant opportunity to effect intergenerational change. The NSW Department of Education Anti-Racism Contact Officer program was the only example provided of intervention approaches in the school system, although it was described by one stakeholder as limited in scope with its progress not yet known. Some community sector stakeholders identified racist behaviour within the school system as a significant problem that schools are currently 38 Federal interviewee (Departmental) 39 Federal interviewee (Departmental) 40 Federal interviewee (Academia) 41 Federal interviewee (Departmental) 26